Dazed and Confused over my Love Rocks??

Well, I hope I can get some input from you folks 'out there' !! I have an '83 and an '84 Love Rock that both do not conform to what you'd expect given their relevant model types:
Firstly, the '80' model....serial#3013753, has the 80 sticker, one piece mahogany back, 18 degree headstock angle (so far so good), but the top is most definitely SOLID flamed maple, and appears to be offset bookmatched as well! So what gives there??
Secondly, the '150' model.....serial#4020843, has a TWO piece mahogany back instead of one, has the 18 degree headstock indicating a higher model, and also has a SOLID flamed maple top!! Pickup covers are DiMarzio, which does conform to pickup type specs for this model however...
Confused? Well I know I have now seen two LS120's that had two piece backs instead of the catalogs' one piece claim.... were there different specs for different countries back then perhaps???
If some-one can suggest how I can get some photos of the pickup cavities onto this site, or elsewhere, then you'll see what I mean about solid maple tops! Not that I'm complaining mind- quite the opposite!
Anyway, this wasn't supposed to be a novel! Any thoughts would be most appreciated! Thanks!!!

Hi Kiwi, welcome to the forum .

Well that is a confusing story. Certainly plenty of reports of 1-piece backs on lower model Love Rocks in early 1980?s (should be 2-piece or 3-piece), however, it?s often notoriously hard to spot the seams, & many such claims may be mistaken.

Just to clear up the 18deg headstock issue, which has arisen repeatedly in recent weeks ? AFAIK, from 1978 to 80 Reborn & Reborn Old had 14deg on LS50 & LS60, but had 18deg on LS80 & above. However, when Love Rock appeared in 1980 they changed the spec, ? LS80 then had 14deg & in fact I think all models had 14 deg with probable exception of top model LS200 (& possible exception of LS150). Since then AFAIK, only the LS320 has 18deg (& maybe recent LS200).

Clearly a 1983 LS80 should not have a solid flamed top ? indeed they?re usually plain sawn, however, I wouldn?t rule out anything where Tokai are concerned, & indeed if it does have 18deg & sold flamed top it may well be an LS200 or LS150 & not an LS80 (despite the sticker) ? are you sure you haven?t got the stickers mixed up on these two guitars? ? sounds like the 1983 may be LS150, and 1984 maybe LS80?

A 1984 LS150 is indeed a very rare beast (got any pics?). Again I think it should have 14deg, and should be 1-piece back (maybe you were unlucky with that, maybe Tokai screwed up?). Again, the veneered top is only about 1/64th-ins thick & is often very tricky to spot ? many, many people have been fooled into concluding ?definitely solid top?.

As for the LS120?s ? I believe these were spec?d with 1-piece back for Reborn & Reborn Old, but I?m not at all sure that spec carried through to Love Rock models after 1980? so 2-piece could be correct on LS120 Love Rocks.

Caveat ? all above from memory, without checking Registry.

Yes photos would be interesting ? see here re Photobucket.com in my reply to Timsmcm
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3563&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 :-?

Ian.

Many thanks for your informative reply! It may well be that I'm not seeing the laminates on both guitars- I'll try and get some pics up asap.
And one bit of wrong info I gave on the LS (or is that TLS? ) 80. The neck angle is only 14 degrees- the same as my third LP, which is a '78 LS 60..oops! So this looks as tho the '83 LS80 is exactly that! I'm still struggling to see the laminate tho....I have seen photos of other laminates on Tokais, and they are clearly visible, and look at least one millimetre thick??
As for the '150'....even if this has a laminate top, it still is contradictory having an eighteen degree headstock, and a two piece back??!! But I'll try and get the pics up and let you more Tokai educated individuals chew it over! Thanks once again, DaVid.

kiwi said:

Secondly, the '150' model.....serial#4020843, has a TWO piece mahogany back instead of one, has the 18 degree headstock indicating a higher model, and also has a SOLID flamed maple top!! Pickup covers are DiMarzio, which does conform to pickup type specs for this model however...

Click to expand...

Interesting, my '84 LS60 Love Rock says "4020848" on the headstock. 8) It also has a two-piece back and a matched flamed maple top, although I'm not sure if it's laminated or solid (can't remember what I saw while changing the pickups). Originally these were Tokai PAFs, now they're original Gibson PAFs from an old SG. So maybe the only difference between our two "sister guitars" were the pickups...

Yeah, nothing is impossible here. In 1984 the LS150 may genuinely have had 18deg as spec. Believe it should have had 1-piece back though.

Hans-jurgen ? your 1984 flamed LS60 is also interesting (nice guitar by the way ), because until recently it was commonly believed that these were all plaintop, eg see my reply to Mike here http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3493&highlight=ls60 :-? .

Ian.

ian said:

your 1984 flamed LS60 is also interesting (nice guitar by the way ), because until recently it was commonly believed that these were all plaintop, eg see my reply to Mike here http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3493&highlight=ls60 :-? .

Click to expand...

Yes, interesting thread, but I don't think the catalogues are totally correct with these details for all models at all times. As far as I remember, my Tokai was labeled LS60 in the shop and also had this sticker (which is gone by now), and I also bought it as a LS60 back then. I'll have to dig through some old bills, maybe I can find it (must be from '85, I guess). I got it for 750,- DM (around EUR 380,- now), although the original price was 990,- DM, but nobody was interested in that guitar for about one year, so the dealer was glad that I finally took it. :wink:

Maybe some Tokai models were labeled differently on purpose to sell them at least in some regions, because at that time Les Paul copies weren't the hottest item in the guitar shop. But I'm only speculating, of course it could have had other reasons that obviously there were some LS60 Love Rock models with flamed maple top around back then.

Anyhow, I'll try to find a picture of it and scan it at work (no camera or scanner at home), so I can upload it to my homepage. And tomorrow I'll take out the bridge pickup to check the cavity and the bottom of that Gibson PAF. :wink:

Greetings once again! Well, I tried to do as suggested Ian and load some pics onto the site, but no luck as yet! However, they can be viewed at photobucket.com/albums/y9/shai-ann ,so for those of you that are interested???
A brief explanation on the pics....
1: This shows the headstock angles on all three guitars. Ignore my last post on the TLS 80 only having a 14 degree angle, as you can see that both the 80 and the 150 both have a steeper (18?) pitch than does the '78 LS60 at the rear..
2. The 150 pickup cavity
3. The 80 pickup cavity
4. 150 on the left, 80 on the right.
5. All three...the Reborn has a really subtle flame on the top half..I'm assuming at least that is solid???
So there you have it. Your views/opinions are eagerly anticipated!
Regards, DaVid.
BTW, interesting about your flame top LS60. Maybe my 150 is a 60 model?

DaVid,
IMO the photo of the LS-80 pickup route shows that the maple top is made from two pieces of maple that are NOT book matched. The maple boards have the grain lines running at different angles and spacing so are definitely not bookmatched. The LS-80 flame top however is close to bookmatched.....so I would say it is a very thin veneer probably sanded thinner at the pickup routes.
The LS-150 photo is not as clear so I can't tell.
Cheers
Pete

kiwi said:

BTW, interesting about your flame top LS60. Maybe my 150 is a 60 model?

Click to expand...

Hmm, as Bluesbrush already wrote, the LS150 picture is not clear enough to tell if it's a solid top or not. On the other hand I can't see any veneer on the photo of the LS80 cavity, so I would believe that you are right with your "solid" thoughts. :wink:

By the way, thank you for those beautiful pictures! May I ask to use them for my homepage, too, because your LS150 looks almost exactly as my LS60 (and my Tobacco Sunburst Love Rock has similarities to your Reborn, too)? It seems that I don't have any own pictures of my Tokais - what a shame after 20 years...

[Edited, because I mixed up the LS80 and LS150]

OK, some more infos on my LS60 from 1984: the bookmatched flamed maple top is a veneer and also thinner than 1 mm, but clearly visible, because the thick maple part beneath is darker, too. It's interesting that the main part of the maple top seems to be one piece of wood or at least not two pieces like the veneer (so maybe three?), because there's no visible split in the graining. This probably contributes to the loud acoustic tone of that guitar when played without amplification.

Concerning the Gibson pickups it seems that these are not PAFs, but PATs from 1963 or later, i.e. they wear a PAT NO. (2.737.42) imprinted on the bottom and a silver (not black) sticker saying "Pat. Appl. For". The colour of their bobbins is zebra. As far as I know, this would confirm the story that the guy told me who sold that Tobacco Sunburst to me ("from a '63 Gibson SG").

[Edit]
After searching through the Les Paul Forum I learned that he must have lied and put in the pickups of his Gibson Heritage 80, because they have an additional ink time stamp saying "183" which stands for January 1983.

Thanks Kiwi ? great photos, & very interesting observations.

Photo-1 (headstock angles) ? yep, exactly as you say? looks like LS60 is 14deg & other two 18deg ? well, there ya go .

Photos-2&3 ? I can?t see any veneer either, but pics are too big to see clearly. They may very well be solid flamed tops , both of them, ? & there ya go again!

Photos-4&5 ? the Reborn surely has solid top??? (must have!) ? it?s center matched 2-piece & model number is stamped at end of fretboard (presumably says ?60??)?yes these often show nice subtle figuring (as indeed do LS50 from that era) 8) .

As you said right at start ? these are three confusing guitars. And as I?ve said before ? Registry & Catalogues are great guide, but only a guide, not Gospel. It?s stuff like this that causes us to re-think what we ?know? ? maybe Peter Mac can clarify some of this :-? ?

Ian.

Greetings once again! Much appreciated input! I'm leaning more towards what you are saying Pete, as the top does appear bookmatched on the '80 and yet showing different grain on the two slabs of maple- and I never considered that they may have sanded the laminate down to zip around the pickup cavities. The same situation applies for the '150...matching flame top yet different looking grained slabs of maple underneath..I'm amazed that they could get the laminate this thin, if this is indeed the case. And yet, to double guess myself, I have worked in, on, and with trees most of my adult life, (I'm a qualified arborist, forester, and horticulturist), and acknowledge that when it comes to timber, anything is potentially possible!
And I also agree with you Ian that nothing is completely gospel in the world of vintage Tokai- the headstock angles on both guitars and the ?150 two piece back??!!
Feel free to use the photos also whoever- digital does make life easier, at least in the photo world...
I'm considering selling the 83 TLS80- it was going to be my long term project, but I've got my sights on a Fulltone Tube Tape Echo, and need to get some cash. But then again........???!!!
Regards, DaVid.

Hi Kiwi,

I can hear ya on the ls-80 issue.I posted on my other thread that I had found an 85 LS-80 supposedly and after looking at it in the pickup cavity I couldn't see any sign of a laminate.I thought the seller had it wrong and maybe it was a higher model.But it might be the same as your LS-80.

My friend in japan luckily found a LS-60 Les Paul Redorn for nearly $600 less than the 80 so I'm going with that.

Let me know if you want to offload the 80,I have a group of tokai freak friends who would be very interested (and are very jealous of my find) if you decide to let her go.It would definitely go to a good home.If you can hold off for a year then I'd probably grab it myself.My wife has put a limit of one guitar a year.She's a fair lady.

Rock on
Watto