Shining up a matte finish

Hi!

I'm seriously thinking about applying some elbow grease to the matte finish on my LS80F MVF to make it look more like a normally finished LP. I like the matte look, but I also like the look of the old bursts...

Can anybody suggest a better product than elbow grease to use that is available in the UK ? I've read about Meguiars #7 polish and micro-somethingorother cloth on the LP Forum - not sure what the UK equivalent is, or if that's the best thing for this task.

Or perhaps there's a good reason why I should leave it well alone?

Thanks,
Ian

Hi Ian,

I've done several complete re-finishes on Strats using nitrocellulose, & by far the very best results I've got were by finishing off using Stewart MacDonald's polishing compounds - indistinguishable from a very good factory-finish. The white ( & earlier pics blue) Stratocaster in the pictures on my homepage (link below) is a good example.

For your purpose, "glossing"-up a matte finish, I'd recommend you just use the "fine" and the "swirl remover" - you may get away with just the swirl remover by itself, but it will be a much longer job!

This is a rather long URL, you may need to copy & paste it in your browser if you can't get it all on one line...
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Abrasives,_polishes/Stewart-MacDonald_Polishing_Compounds.html

In order to cut down on the "elbow-grease" (though a hell of a lot needed anyway!), I got a couple of polishing wheels too, to use with an electric drill - very nice pro results in a lot less time! - much more even than doing it by hand and far less chance of "polishing through' the finish too! 8)
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Abrasives,_polishes/Finesse_Polishing_Pad.html

You'll need one for each compound - label them so you don't mix 'em up! Luckily none of this stuff is very expensive.

StewMac stuff seems to arrive here (Hong Kong ) about 3 days after I order it, very fast service!

Be very careful to just polish enough with the fine compound to remove the matte finish, the swirl remover will then give the gloss finish without applying a lot of pressure - you really don't want to go through the clear coat into the colour coats beneath.

- If you DO accidentally polish through the clear-coat finish, it's actually fairly easy to add another clear coat using nitrocellulose spray cans - if you're careful - but completely clean the surface with naptha (lighter-fluid, usually sold as 'Zippo' or 'Ronson' in tobacconist's) first, and make sure the room is warm & well ventilated. Wear a face mask. Several very light coats is better than one thick one, which may 'sag' and even 'craze' later. (Don't spray nitrocellulose onto polyester or vice-versa, there wil be a chemical reaction & you'll prolly have to strip the guitar & start over from scratch!) 1500 wet-n-dry paper after each couple of light coats and finally 2000 grade. Use plenty of water on the paper (even a little dish-detergent on the final polish before using the StewMac compound). This easy on a Strat or Tele becasue of the flat surfaces (wrap the wet-n-dry paper round a flat block of wood, or a couple of empty cassette boxes stuck together, to keep it even on flat surfaces, find a curved or rounded object to wrqp the paper around for sanding non-flat surface)) - but on a carved top like a Love Rock your elbow 's are gonna hurt! In the next step, the fine compound gets rid of small unevenness from sanding, and the swirl remover gives the glossy finish.

I should add that I also used the compound & swirl remover to "clean-up" a friend's old & well-gigged 80's Strat (he wanted to give it as a present to his son) and the polyester finish was VERY different - it took a LOT more work (maybe 30 to 40 tims as much!) over several days (...and ruined the polishing pads by the time I was finished - almost killed the electric drill too!). :-?

Got the job done in the end, but I won't be messing around with a poly finish ever again. :roll:

For your sake, I hope your finish is nitro!

Good Luck!

Hi Bill!

Many thanks for that expansive response.

BTW - nice home site you have. Very elegant look. The HK photos brought back a few memories; I stayed at the YMCA hotel a year or so ago (work, I'm afraid, but I had time to have a look round some parts of HK), for three weeks) and had a very similar view out of the bedroom window. Stunning.

I'm pretty sure the finish on my LS80 is poly. The StewMac write up on the products you mention talks about plastic surfaces as well, so I guess that it should work on poly ok. Plus I could use it to carefully polish out a few surface scratches on my Fender US Vintage RI 57 Strat!

My intention is to sit my guitar on my lap (with TV or CD player on) and polish/gloss it up bit by bit. I should be able to do the bulk of it without dismantling it and there's no particular rush. I assume that there's less likelihood of 'polishing through' as the poly finish is much harder than nitro.

Don't know why I didn't think of StewMac straight away. I've used them a number of times in the past and always, like you, had good service from them. Thanks for the reminder...

I'm wondering now, though, as I can't imagine I'd ever want to refinish this guitar, if it might be an easier and better option to use a wax-based polish to gloss the finish up?

I wonder, also, how the matte finish is obtained. Is it simply the usual process without the final buffing stage, or a completely different process?

All these questions... :roll:

Best wishes,
Ian

Well Ian as you may remember I have pretty much the exact same guitar as you have (though mine is currently at a store for a setup), and I have actually been thinking about glossing it up as well. However, some things I have noticed might make the process more difficult and less rewarding than it may seem at first sight.

Firstly, I don't think the finish on the matte guitar will ever be as shiney as normal 'glossy' finishes. My LS80 has quite some playing time on it now and the neck is pretty much as shiney as I expect it can become by normal usage. It's no longer matte, but it doesn't look anywhere near factory-finished glossy guitars. Instead, it looks a bit semi-glossy. Good, but not like most other Les Pauls

I doubt you could obtain a better result from buffing it out with some sort of compound. I reckon it would look like my neck, which as I said is somewhere between matte and a full-shine. In that case, I'd personally prefer the satin finish the way it is now.

Also, you should consider the thickness of the paint that is on it now - it's thing, really thin. Judging from the dings on my guitar (unfortunately the finish isn't very durable!) I'd estimate that the finish is easily less than 1mm thick, probably around 0,5-0,75mm - much thinner than most poly finishes I've seen. This has led me to believe that it is actually a different finish than the glossy models, and not simply the same finish but without the final buffing out process.

But who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong. I'd be very interested to see what your results would be if you decide to do anything to it. I like the satin finish as well, but I probably prefer shiney after all

I think even the poly finishes aren't all that thick. I used 8000-grit Micro-Mesh (Stew-Mac sells it, but I got mine at a cabinet/finishing supply store) to cut down the plasticy-looking gloss on my LR, and it worked great. But I had a little ding on the back of the neck that I first drop-filled with laquer, then used the Micro-Mesh to level it off. This sanding was only a tiny bit more aggressive, but it didn't take any time at all to start showing a tiny spot of bare wood (very tiny - I stopped right away!). Actually, now it looks like years of soulful playing have worn through the neck finish :wink:

My concern with the matte finish is that if its a low-gloss laquer to begin with, no amount of polishing will make it shinier. It just ain't in the chemical makeup. If the finish is a result of a non-buffing process, then it should work. Good luck!

Hi All!

ArthurS - I certainly do remember you having 'my' guitar. Mine also is getting glossy on the back of the neck. If I could just get the whole guitar a little more glossy than that I'll be happy. I'm not looking for a PRS 'encased in liquid glass' look (luckily!) but a look more akin to a much-used burst where the nitro has sunk and lost some of it's shine.

I agree about the thinness and brittleness of the finish. Mine was only to ready to chip when I carefully drilled holes for the truss rod cover and scratch plate bracket.

Novosel - I'll learn from your experience and take things very carefully. I take your point about the chemical compostition; hopefully the way the neck is shining up is an indication that what I want to do may be possible.

So... I guess I'd better get some supplies and get to work!

Hi All!

ArthurS - I certainly do remember you having 'my' guitar. Mine also is getting glossy on the back of the neck. If I could just get the whole guitar a little more glossy than that I'll be happy. I'm not looking for a PRS 'encased in liquid glass' look (luckily!) but a look more akin to a much-used burst where the nitro has sunk and lost some of it's shine.

I agree about the thinness and brittleness of the finish. Mine was only to ready to chip when I carefully drilled holes for the truss rod cover and scratch plate bracket.

Novosel - I'll learn from your experience and take things very carefully. I take your point about the chemical compostition; hopefully the way the neck is shining up is an indication that what I want to do may be possible.

So... I guess I'd better get some supplies and get to work!

Hey!

If you double-post, does it add to your post count?

Very cool Ian, I really look forward to seeing your results! Could you please document the process, so other owners (like me ) can learn from your experience and reproduce it themselves?

Novosel - "Hey! If you double-post, does it add to your post count?"

If only! Sadly my count seemed to stay on 22 posts! Not quite sure what happened there... Still - I'm finally off 'Plucker' now.

ArthurS - "... Could you please document the process..."

Sure - it's the least I can do after all the help and advice I've been given here. Apart from ordering an aluminium stop bar yesterday I also ordered a digicam (Minolta DiMage x20) from Amazon.co.uk; hoping it will arrive before I make a start on the guitar. Otherwise it'll have to be my cheapie one.

Best wishes,
Ian

Great, Ian! Best of luck in shining up your guitar, I hope the end-result will meet your expectations!

Toothpaste my friend... The white kind. Then swirl remover if you still aren't satisfied, but regular toothpaste should do the trick if you keep rubbing at it long enough.

Hi StratoRat!

That's an interesting idea... and a lot easier than ordering from StewMac!

My first thought is "wouldn't toothpaste be too abrasive?"

The second... "If I used whitening toothpase do you think it might lighten up the red component of the sunburst!"

The third... "Mmmm - minty, shiny Lester!" 8)

The fourth... ****, those St Patrick's day drinks that I forced to imbibe at lunchtime sure make constructive thinking difficult...

Best wishes,
Ian

1. Toothpaste isn't incredibly abrasive, after all, it doesn't wear your teeth away, does it? I understand the fragility of a Nitro finish, but I believe it would be fine. You could test it on a spot on the back to find out, but I doubt there would be any damage.

2. I'd just stick to the cheap non whitening, non gel toothpaste to be safe, unless you're interested in lighter sunburst colors, but I also doubt it would have an effect.


I've tried it on lots of finishes, but I've never had a nitro guitar (I'm poor). I stumbled onto the idea when I learned that toothpaste can take the scratches out of CD's. Works great on poly, and whatever the finish is on an MIM standard neck. The matte finish on my mim neck is now a glossy laquery luster thanks to toothpaste.

but,,,if you've used all your toothpaste on guitars...what's the state of your teeth?

I play guitar with my teeth enough, and have enough toothpaste on my guitars that they're in fine shape.

well, ok...just wondering.

Hi StratoRat!

I tried the toothpaste method on a small area on the back of my (sacrificial) Squier Strat last night. After about a minute's polishing of what seems to be a pretty tough poly finish I got swirl marks, I'm afraid.

I'm now wondering whether I might be better off shining the guitar with a wax polish rather than something which is even mildly abrasive like the StewMac swirl remover. I can't see myself getting the guitar re-finished so providing it doesn't damage the finish I might be better off that way?

Just kidding about the whitening toothpaste, BTW! <g>

Following up the dental theme... I wonder if one could floss with the top strings? :wink:

Best wishes,
Ian

Well, sorry it didn't work out. Maybe it's a different kind of toothpaste or something. Here's a picture of my MIM strat's headstock (they have a matte finish)


It's a terrible pic, but you can see the tuner peg reflection in it. It's not super shiny or anything, but about what you would expect from a good nitro finish, even though it's poly.

Any progress, Ian? Or have you decided to keep it matte after all?

Just curious