Tokai vs Yamaha

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BluesFan

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A couple of years ago I almost bought an ES-135 and even placed an order but stock was hard to come by and after a couple of months I cancelled it. I am now once again considering buying a quality 335 type guitar but am in a quandary. I read lots of good things about the MIJ ES models but so many people upgrade the PUPs and other hardware. Why? The guitar that has caught my attention recently is the Yamaha SA2200 which costs a little more than the ES135 but has excellent reviews and I've not read of anyone upgrading the hardware. Does anyone have any first hand experience of the Yamaha vs the Tokai models?
 
People upgrade the hardware because they're fussy. It's as simple as that. They tend to be guitar enthusiasts who are the same ones who'd happily swap out stuff on their Gibsons/Fenders/Gretsches, what have you.

Tokai MKII pickups are excellent stock pickups. Yes, you can do marginally better with hand wound boutique pickups, but it's a small change.

Tokai pickups are not Epiphone pickups or similar cheap 'n nasty ones. A lot of people change out the pickups on the made-in-china ES because they're apparently not great.

But the MKIIs on the MIJ Tokais are brilliant.

Higher end ESs will have your aluminium tailpieces and fancy capacitors and whatnot. People who buy the lower end MIJ ESs might naturally want to make the inexpensive upgrades to these components.

But none of this comes close to suggesting that the MIJ ESs are not absolutely superb guitars. Check out some of the youtube vids if you have no opportunity to try them.

Not dissing Yamaha here which make great guitars, but I don't think people are swapping out Tokai hardware because it's "deficient," but rather out of individual preference, you know?
 
Let me know when you find better 335's than Tokais, I'd love to hear them.

so many people upgrade the PUPs and other hardware. Why?

Because they're clueless...not one upgrade is required on a Tokai ES135/155/185...yes, you can "change" things if you want, but you won't be upgrading.

If you're the upgrading type then a nice guitar to upgrade is the Traditional Series ES60.
 
singemonkey said:
People upgrade the hardware because they're fussy. It's as simple as that. They tend to be guitar enthusiasts who are the same ones who'd happily swap out stuff on their Gibsons/Fenders/Gretsches, what have you.

Tokai MKII pickups are excellent stock pickups. Yes, you can do marginally better with hand wound boutique pickups, but it's a small change.

Tokai pickups are not Epiphone pickups or similar cheap 'n nasty ones. A lot of people change out the pickups on the made-in-china ES because they're apparently not great.

But the MKIIs on the MIJ Tokais are brilliant.

Higher end ESs will have your aluminium tailpieces and fancy capacitors and whatnot. People who buy the lower end MIJ ESs might naturally want to make the inexpensive upgrades to these components.

But none of this comes close to suggesting that the MIJ ESs are not absolutely superb guitars. Check out some of the youtube vids if you have no opportunity to try them.

Not dissing Yamaha here which make great guitars, but I don't think people are swapping out Tokai hardware because it's "deficient," but rather out of individual preference, you know?

Alan, typed my post whilst you were typing yours...agree with everything you said. :)
 
Me again Sorry didn't see the other post as Diamond beat me to it. One thing though Matt has Lollar unbuckers in his and has changed the pots as well reading his website.....
 
According to his website Matt has made some modifications to his Tokai including pickup replacement!
 
Changing the pickups in a guitar doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the guitar, it's purely a question of preference. I have changed the pickups in a Fender Custom Shop Tele whilst leaving the original pickups in my Breezy TE70. But I've changed the pickups in my Goldstars as I think the guitars are good enough to justify better pickups.

It's all personal preference, there's no right & wrong here.

Mike
 
Totally agree with you stratman323. I have not changed the pickups or pots in my 2003 LS85 as they still sound fine to me. I was just making the point that Matts guitar (in fact I think it actually belongs to Simon his tech)is not ex factory but has been adapted.....
 
BluesFan said:
According to his website Matt has made some modifications to his Tokai including pickup replacement!

And yet he continues to play it live when, as a working pro, he could play any production guitar on the market.

I swapped out the pickups in my Gibson. And the knobs. It's not that they were terrible. I just didn't like 'em. Lots of people feel this way. It's not a crushing indictment against the guitar.

And I disagree with Diamond that you'd have to be clueless to dump Tokai pickups. In my LS150, for example, the MK II sounds incredible in the bridge, but I'd consider replacing the neck with a BareKnuckle one of these days. It sounds good, but I reckon if I laid down some real money, it could sound better. It sounds good enough that it's only a speculation at this point though.

If you find out how often people mod their guitars, I think you'll see that it's weird to assume that the guitar is no good because someone changed a bunch of hardware. The telling point is whether they continue to play the guitar live, or seek to replace it.
 
singemonkey said:
And I disagree with Diamond that you'd have to be clueless to dump Tokai pickups. In my LS150, for example, the MK II sounds incredible in the bridge, but I'd consider replacing the neck with a BareKnuckle one of these days. It sounds good, but I reckon if I laid down some real money, it could sound better. It sounds good enough that it's only a speculation at this point though.

+1

MKII fit right in for a vintage LP sound with some bite.

I own a Yamaha SG too and the fit and finish are on par with high end Tokais = immaculate. I prefer the MKII to the Yam pickups but I think they were engineered to produce a good single coil sound in split mode.

Both are great guitars - try both brands if you can.
 
BluesFan said:
I read lots of good things about the MIJ ES models but so many people upgrade the PUPs and other hardware. Why?

Where are you reading these things? Sounds like Harmony Central Syndrome to me...

I agree with the others; there's a difference between a modification and an upgrade. At the level of MIJ Tokai (and Yamaha) you're talking personal preference rather than fixing a problem.

The only things I don't like on mid-level tokais are the nut, the switch and the jack. All easy, cheap and effective upgrades... and the same applies to equivalent Yamahas.

I think I know the real answer to your question though. What's the difference between Yammy and Tokai? Both are highly respected Japanese brands making similar guitars at the same price points... But Tokai has more of the classic mojo. Yamaha are the working man's guitar, the guitar for the guy who doesn't lose sleep over what brand of capacitor sounds best on his tone control or whether the truss rod cover is historically accurate. If they play good and sound good, then they are good and that guy will never want to upgrade or make modifications.

The guy who mods his Tokai perhaps sees the potential to perfectly recapture the spirit of those much loved old classics down the finest detail, and the Tokai guitars provide a good enough base to do that with a few relatively minor tweaks.

Obviously there are those who upgrade Yamahas and those who love their Tokais off-the-shelf, and everyone in between. But in general terms I think that's why you're reading more about upgrades on Tokai guitars.
 
I swapped out the MKII's from my LS-150 and my SG-155 because I found them too muddy and too shrill respectively. That said, I think they sound absolutely amazing in my ES-120! A little tweaking with the tone controls and they are 'that' sound I think of when I think of what an ES-style guitar should sound like.

Jason
 
Comparing different pickups is like comparing apples and oranges (at least to me). MKIIs might be the best apples out there, but I might not be in the mood for an apple. If you are hung up on apples only, well that's your loss :wink:
I want those tronbuckers from Acy's :p
 
Paladin2019 said:
Yamaha are the working man's guitar, the guitar for the guy who doesn't lose sleep over what brand of capacitor sounds best on his tone control or whether the truss rod cover is historically accurate.

That's possibly not the case with some of the vintage ones that were pretty high end.
 
I like your post Paladin2019. In it you say "...the guy who doesn't lose sleep over what brand of capacitor sounds best on his tone control or whether the truss rod cover is historically accurate. If they play good and sound good, then they are good and that guy will never want to upgrade or make modifications" That's me! If the men from Tokai or Yamaha think the tone control or truss rod cover is right for their guitar then who am I to argue?

In my original post I was keen to know why people pay good money for a good guitar then make modifications or upgrades, call it what you will. I think the answer is because they want to not because it is necessary.

For a few days last week I was considering getting the real thing i.e. a Gibson 335 but I think that would be a waste of money when there are genuinely good guitars out there for a lot less cash. I'm still undecided what to do so until I make up my mind I will continue to play the blues on my 1989 American Standard Fender Strat. Perhaps I could write a song called The 335 Blues!
 
Bluesfan, it is possible to get an Gibson ES335 second hand for only a little more than you'd pay for a new Tokai ES185 (is that the current top end model code?) brand new.

If you get a chance to play the 335 and make sure it's a goodie before you pay, there's not much downside.

But you do pay more for the brand-name. Gibson quality issues aside, the point in buying a new high end Tokai instead of a second hand Gibson is luxury materials (the Honduras mahogany neck on the top end model, plus fancy capacitors, tailpiece, bridge, flamed top, etc.), and Tokai's excellent quality control and workmanship.

The Tokais are definitely strong competitors in the bang-for-buck department. But if you'd rather have the Gibson, you can probably find an affordable one that's built really well.

But the Tokai will give you some extras, and will not disappoint.
 

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