laminated tops

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bobw

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I've read on these forums that many Love Rock models have laminated tops, given that Epiphone Les Paul models also feature this, and in the UK retail at about half the price of a Love Rock, what is there to justify the higher cost of the Tokai? If the Tokai is deemed to be a 'true replica' of a Gibson Les Paul how come they do not feature the solid top of the Gibson. I should add that I have no axe to grind (no pun intended) only a general interest in such things.
Bob W
 
because it is still a high quality maple cap on a good piece of mahog. Epi puts maple on plywood. Since when did the look of a flame affect tone, anyway?
 
Hi Bob

There are new Tokais with all solid plain tops, laminated flamed tops and solid flamed tops. Its just a range to suit everyone's budget and taste. But as Steve says, even the laminate tops are only a final layer on top of a solid maple cap and mahogany back - so the bulk of the guitar is solid wood, unlike most other LP replicas. Its also debatable how much the tone is effected by this final layer - as I've said before, one of the best sounding LPs I've played was a laminated top Tokai Les Paul Reborn. Admittedly this was an older (and some would say better made) Tokai, but none the less I prefered it to a ?5000 Gibson Reissue.

James
 
I have read that the nitrocellulose that Gibson use contributes to improved tone over polyurethane and that stripped finishes often sound better, so I'm thinking that a thin laminate glued to the top cannot be good for tone (glue is not good for resonance). Incidentally I did once own an Epi Les Paul and it was not ply but a laminate on solid wood (of some sort).
 
The bottom line is cost though isn't it. Using nitrocellulose (which the top Tokai model, the LS320, does) is supposedly more labour intensive and thus costly. People want flametops but don't want to pay for the expensive wood. Maybe a thin top laminate isn't ideal for resonance and tone, but I think the point is that Tokais get a lot closer to nailing most peoples' idea of a good LP sound than the Epis.
Most of all though I think its too easy to get carried away with some of the spec details and forget that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If it sounds and feels good, then it is good, regardless of the name on the headstock or how its made, and thats what Tokai has built its reputation on and why people chose them over Epiphones. I think its best to judge from our own experience rather than from what we read.
 
James,
You indicated that some Love Rocks are solid tops, is there any obvious way to tell either my model no or appearance on the current models available in the UK? Unfortunately on the couple of occasions I've been to a 'Tokai dealer'(none exactly close by) they haven't had any in stock so I have yet to see one 'in the flesh'.
 
James,
You indicated that some Love Rocks are solid tops, is there any obvious way to tell either my model no or appearance on the current models available in the UK? Unfortunately on the couple of occasions I've been to a 'Tokai dealer'(none exactly close by) they haven't had any in stock so I have yet to see one 'in the flesh'.
 
I don't think that the solid flame top models are available in the UK Bob. They're certainly not listed on the UK distributor's site (although I'm not sure how up to date it is:

http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/Loverock.html

Those on this forum who have got them all seem to have got them imported from Japan (correct me if I'm wrong guys). For example, Dana submitted this link that shows all the models on offer at a Japanese site:

http://www.cyborg.ne.jp/~universe/tokai_guitar/tokai_guitar.html

If you're thinking of getting one from a UK dealer and they claim its a solid flame top I'd ask them to remove one of the pickups so you can see inside the cavity - it should be obvious if theres a laminate on top.
Incidently the laminate is flamed sycamore. The plain top models have solid maple tops (either 2 or 3 piece).

James

 
Bob

As James said check the Pickup cavities. The bridge cavity is easier to access than the neck cavity. If the guitar has open coil pickups, you may be able to see the veneer without removing the strings, pickup surround etc. 'Gently' push the P/U down on its mounting screws and have a peek using a torch or penlight. Remember that the veneer is hardly noticeable and is only around 2mm to 3mm thick so you?ll have to look hard. Don't be fooled by the thick maple cap remember you're looking for something on top of that.

I?ve just picked up an ?80?s black Love Rock. This guitar has a solid 2 piece maple top one-piece mahogany neck and what looks like a 3 piece mahogany body (you can just about see the joint lines in the paint on the back of the guitar).

It plays real nice and sound wise I can?t fault it. I doubt Wheather you could hear much difference between a solid top and a veneered top, although I would say this guitar is a shade heavier than the sunburst models I?ve fondled.

 
Hi guys,

Keep in mind that the maple cap under the bookmatched laminate is generally not 2 piece, so the "centreline" will only travel for those 2-3mm.
This is arguably the quickest way to tell a solid top from a laminate, especially if it is bookmatched.

Peter
 
Peter Mac

You've got me thinking now Peter. I'm gonna get the screwdrivers out and have a good look in day light at the maple cap on the black one. It could be one piece.

L
 
Hi Lee,
sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the maple cap is more likely 3-piece under a bookmatched laminated top.
With the solid color finishes (gold, black, cherry) these were generally 3-piece also, although some definately have 2-piece maple tops - mainly the higher priced models.
To the best of my knowledge, no Tokai LR had a single piece top.

Peter
 
Thanks again Peter. If it would just stop raining over here for 5 minutes I may be able to get out in the sunshine and confirm your suspicions. Hang on, sunshine in the UK :lol:

Could this be why my TLS50 guitar is a little heavier than normal. Like, if they were using off-cuts or wood with slight blemishes in the grain for the solid colour guitars. Waste not want not I guess.

Thoughts?

 
Epiphone uses a mahogany/alder wood for the body on a lot of their guitars. Sometimes, you may find a really light Epiphone that is an all alder body. The norm is mahogany for the Epiphones but you can catch a few alder bodied guitars around. I owned 2 Epiphone LP Standards prior to getting my Tokai LS200 and one was almost 2lbs lighter than the other, which was a good indicator it was an alder body.

I ended up sending both Epi's back because one had a lot of cosmetic flaws (too much glue around inlays), and the other had a cracked headstock just behind the nut.

Dana
 
Hi Lee,

As far as weight goes, your idea is not neccessarily true.
The weight of a LP has to do with the density of the woods used in the construction - not the number of pieces used. All wood that has not been cured properly will have a heavier density than wood that does, plus maple can vary immensly in weight depending on whether it is hard or soft maple, then blah, blah ,blah.. this could take all night.
Sorry. My point is that the average weight of a good LP is between 8 and 8.5 lbs. This seems a comfortable weight with the right blend of cured woods and body pieces.
The extra weight of your LP could be nothing more than pieces of hard rock maple used on the top. It can be that simple.
Going around and weighing guitars for the 8.5lb body weight is stupidity though. When I have chosen LP's over the decades, I go for neck shape, feel, weight and I always play it WITHOUT an amp FIRST - you need to feel the resonance. If it passes these criteria, I buy it - regardless of brand.

Your LS-50 sounds great. Forget the sunshine and just play it
regards
Peter

 
Just wanted to agree with Peter about playing a guitar without an amp first of all. I always do this and a guitar's acoustic sound has definitly become one of the key criteria for me buying it. I think I started doing it years ago, after reading an interview with Dicky Betts from the Allman Brothers, where he said he picked his 50s Les Paul from several after taking them all into a tiled bathroom and just playing them acoustically - didn't bother with an amp at all. Not sure I'd go quite that far but for me its always the place to start. :smile:
 
Peter/James

Yeah I go with the acoustic test too, I have a PRS McCarty Soapbar that is so resonant that it has a kind of plasticy sound to it, somewhat like those old Italian guitars from the 60's (just reissued I believe). I'm not saying that's a bad thing just different. In some ways its almost too resonant at times depending on what style I'm playing. It's a very lively plank and doesn't suit everything.

But I agree that there are a number of factors that "add up" to a guitars overall sound including all the points you mentioned.

I'm well pleased with the TLS50 having been after a black one for ages. I'll try and post a pic up here and on the Tokai Pic Page.

Cheers
 
Concernig the "average" weight of a good LP. 8-8.5lbs. seems a little on the light side. If you look at the average weights of the LP's in the Beauty of the Burst book, most come in around 9lbs. I think way too much attention is made to the weight issue. LP's can be killer guitars from 8 to 10lbs!
 
I happened by PJ Walkers guitar shop in Portsmouth on the day he was unpacking three new Tokai Love Rocks (MIJ). I'd just successfully sued my previous employer for unfair dismissal and my bank balance was unnecesarilly bloated. I'd made up my mind to get the real deal - a Gibson Les Paul.

After trying every LP in the shop (Custom, Deluxe, Artiste, Black Beauty etc. etc.) I decided to have a look at the Tokais. I knew they were good having previously owned a Tokai Strat replica. I was completely blown away and forgot about the Gibsons.

My only problem then was deciding which Tokai to buy...I fell in love with the quilted model, thought the flamed maple was sexy - BUT - the LS-65 with the simple two-piece maple top sounded best. It was also the cheapest.

I went looking for a Gibson and was prepared to pay as much as it took, but the best guitar in the shop was the Tokai LS-65 MIJ. Aesthetics sometimes get in the way of sound judgement - I loved the look of the quilted top but it sounded dull compared with the maple top.

If a polyurethane finish can affect the resonance of a solid guitar (and it does!!) I'm sure a thin veneer which is glued on does too!!
 
good point, Brian.

If we say that every glue joint takes away 1% of resonance, then God help Epiphone. :lol:

Your point about the top is quite valid though. To fit the laminate, the maple cap underneath needs to be 3mm thinner and the laminate would not add any real sustain/tone to the guitar - it is more a cosmetic enhancement. The 2-piece solid maple cap models (flame or plain) would always out-perform the laminate top models.

regards
Peter Mac
 

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